Stopping Distance

"zeontestpilot" (zeontestpilot)
04/19/2016 at 08:08 • Filed to: Question

I’ve been trying to figure this out. Despite having new front brake pads and rotors, it seems the time it takes for my car to stop has not decreased.

When pressing the brake, it seems that it has to be nearly all the way down to work. Otherwise the brakes would be subtly applied and my speed barely decreases. Most other cars that I’ve driven, the brakes work a lot quicker. Is this normal? The only other car that did this, that I drove, is my dads ‘05 Corolla.

Update: it seems the most likely culprit is that the brake line hasn't been bled since I bought the car 8+ mo the ago.

DISCUSSION (51)

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:11

Sounds like you might need to bleed your lines. Or possibly even replace the brake lines altogether. Your calipers might not be getting sufficient hydraulic pressure to fully work.

DutchieDC2R > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
04/19/2016 at 08:14

Bleeding was my first thought aswell...

GTRZILLAR32-Now saving for Godzilla and a condo > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:14

Did you replace your rotors and/or bleed your lines?

zeontestpilot > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
04/19/2016 at 08:14

So it’s not normal then?

Is it difficult to bleed the brake lines?

zeontestpilot > GTRZILLAR32-Now saving for Godzilla and a condo
04/19/2016 at 08:15

Rotors yes, brake lines, no.

Ash78, voting early and often > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:16

Ditto the bleed. I never change pads without doing the fluid, too. I've used a Motive bleeder for over 10 years ($40?), but I've heard good stuff about Mityvac, too. It all depends on whether you want to force the pressure from the reservoir — don't exceed about 10psi — or whether you want to suck the fluid from each corner. Not terribly hard, just potentially messy.

John > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:16

Not difficult at all. Youll need a brake bleeder, but theyre cheap. Either an auto parts store or harbor freight will have them. Its also much easier if you have a friend or child or helper to press the brake peddle while use the bleeder. Youll need more brake fluid too, make sure you get the correct type.

fourvalleys > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:17

Well it may be normal. Or maybe not. Some cars feel incredibly different - in one of my cars I have to warn people they bite very hard, and in another I have to remind people to try them before they need them. I’d expect it’s probably not “normal” for that car though.

As for bleeding brakes... It’s not really difficult, but without any special equipment you’ll probably need two people. I’d recommend someone who has done it at least once - air in your brake lines isn’t fun at all.

e: By “special equipment” I mean anything outside of a wrench. You’ll also need a bit of hose for the bleed nipple, and a bottle to put the old stuff into. That’s it! A power bleeder is nice, but you don’t NEED one if you have two people. There are plenty of great how-to articles out there.

zeontestpilot > Ash78, voting early and often
04/19/2016 at 08:18

So new fluid too then, hmm...

zeontestpilot > John
04/19/2016 at 08:18

Probably look online for the right type then I guess.

PartyPooper2012 > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:19

When you hit the brake pedal, your master cylinder goes to work pumping brake fluid into your brake lines. Brake lines build brake fluid pressure and force calipers to compress brake pads against rotor.

You have several points of possible failure. If you have air in brake lines, that compresses a lot more than brake fluid so instead of applying force to your calipers, it instead compresses air inside. So you may need to bleed your brake lines to rid of air.

You may also have a faulty or leaking brake master cylinder... not applying enough pressure to lines.

You may also have a faulty or leaking calipers not compressing properly.

finally, your rotor may be worn to a point where calipers and pads simply cannot reach rotor - usually not likely though.

One more possible culprit is that your brake fluid is old and has debree in it. clogged brake lines possible. flush brake fluid. add new. bleed system.

Simple check - check brake fluid level. that would tell you if you have a leak in system. Check around master cylinder and calipers for leaks. Check brake lines to make sure they are not rusted out or leaking.

If all is well, then you either have air in system or malfunction in calipers. Calipers don’t usually go at the same time, so your car would pull to a side of the working caliper. If that’s not the case, air! Bleed it. Add more fluid. try again.

Ash78, voting early and often > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:20

You’re supposed to do it every 2-4 years anyway. If you were able to do pads, fluid is a cakewalk!

Die-Trying > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:21

on some cars with aBs you have to reset the abs system..... basically find a gravel road get some decent speed and mash the pedal real hard till the abs kicks in. do that a couple times ..... <<<< not trying to get you killed for the lols...

zeontestpilot > PartyPooper2012
04/19/2016 at 08:23

The rotors are brand new, so that shouldn’t be problem. How can I narrow the problem between these choices?

TheRealBicycleBuck > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:24

“I’ve been trying to figure this out. Despite having new break pads, it seems the time it takes for my car to stop has not decreased.”

There’s your problem. You were supposed to install brake pads not break pads.

All kidding aside, new brake pads won’t necessarily make your car’s stopping distance any shorter. Your description of the soft pedal is more disconcerting. It does sound like there is a problem with the system - air in a line, a bad line that is ballooning, maybe a problem with the master or slave cylinder, or maybe the rotors are glazed. You didn’t mention turning or replacing the rotors, so glazing could be an issue.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:24

Change your brake fluid and make sure to bleed it.

zeontestpilot > Ash78, voting early and often
04/19/2016 at 08:25

MontegoMan helped me with the pads and rotors, lol.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:25

I used to own GM cars and you normally only need about 1/8-1/4 of the pedal travel to start to “get into” the brakes. Actually thats the same for most basic passenger vehicles. But yes it sounds like your pistons aren’t going out far enough for the given pedal pressure. That’s a sign that there is an air bubble somewhere in the lines.

zeontestpilot > Die-Trying
04/19/2016 at 08:26

Your username does not bring comfort with this suggestion, :).

PartyPooper2012 > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:28

Have you bled the system?

There are several youtube videos you can check on how to. Basically start from furthest point of your brake master cylinder - passenger side rear wheel. Then driver side rear wheel. then passenger front and finally driver front.

Don’t forget that when you’re bleeding the system, you’re letting a bit of brake fluid out.... so keep an eye on the level in the reservoir. keep adding more as it gets low. Don’t reuse old fluid.

McMike > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:29

New fluid, flex lines, a good bleed, and properly-adjusted drums can do nothing but help.

Start with flex lines and a brake fluid replacement.

zeontestpilot > TheRealBicycleBuck
04/19/2016 at 08:31

I changed it above to include I added new rotors. I'm guessing the line needs to be bleed.

Die-Trying > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:31

thats okay...... you can start bleeding brakes, and we’ll see if someone else chimes in.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:32

1) Check brake fluid level. If low, fill to appropriate line with some DOT3 brake fluid (like, 5$)

2) If fluid level remains constant after a week or two, then you have a leak, so bust out some cardboard and park over it and pump the brakes and see where the drips are.

3) When you find a leak, inspect the brake line at that corner. It might just need to be tightened. If it looks damaged or split, then replace that corner

ALTERNATIVELY

Bleed the brakes at all 4 corners. Go to harbor freight and get a speedy bleeder. What you do - pop the hood and open the brake fluid resivoir, fill it up (you’re going to drain some of it out with ever caliper you bleed), jack up the corner, take off the tire, crack open the bleed valve, then pump the bleeder until fresh fluid is coming out with no air. KEEP THE RESIVOIR FLUID LEVEL UP! DON’T BLEED THE MASTER CYLINDER DRY!

jariten1781 > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:35

Some cars just have more progressive or just more effort brakes. I’ll agree it’s a good idea to swap your brake fluid (and properly bleed, of course) if you don’t know how old it is, but don’t necessarily expect it to change the behavior. Go out on an empty road/parking lot, get up to 25-30 and jam on the brakes...if you get 4 wheel lock or ABS activation you may just have a different feel pedal. Best way to check that is get in a known good same model car and see if the feel is any different.

Also, power bleeders are probably really cool and easy and everything, but I always just enlist my wife to pump the pedal for a standard bleed. No specialty equipment necessary.

zeontestpilot > PartyPooper2012
04/19/2016 at 08:35

The system is not bled, so that's probably the culprit. I wonder if it's cheaper to have someone else do it, or convince a friend to help me and do it myself.

Meatcoma > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:36

Bleeding your brakes is the cheapest and (should be) first option. After that, you would look for leaks and then possibly upgrade your calipers. Although I think a brake bleeding would solve your problem. You can also take it to a shop and they will bleed them for you relatively cheaply if you don’t feel comfortable doing it yourself, it’s pretty easy though.

zeontestpilot > McMike
04/19/2016 at 08:37

Drums? If you mean brake drums I don't have those.

zeontestpilot > Meatcoma
04/19/2016 at 08:39

What's the standard shop price? $20?

PartyPooper2012 > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:40

If you have never done it, take it to a pro and WATCH them...

It not hard. one person pumps brake pedal and builds pressure. Once pedal is hard, press on it to keep pressure built.

Other person is at the caliper. Put a little clear hose on the valve so you can see what’s going on. Open the release bolt to let fluid out. As you do this, brake pedal will drop to floor. Close the valve on caliper and pump up brakes again. do this a few times till you can see no air bubbles are coming through the hose. Make sure not to leave the valve open as air will come back into the line. As I said, pump up brakes. open valve let air and fluid out. brake pedal will drop to floor. close the valve then. pump brakes again. do this a few times. Start from furthest point from master cylinder and continue getting closer- passenger rear, driver rear, passenger front and driver front.

Keep adding fluid as you do this as it will get low and you will be pumping air back into the lines. bad idea

Meatcoma > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:44

it’s probably 1/2 hour labor, so $20-$30.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:53

It’s a 6-pack and an hour of driveway time between good friends to do it yourself. It is a very easy one to do and I actually find it soothing. Brake fluid is cheap. A quart of prestone DOT 3 is like 5$ at meijer.

I would recommend at least trying to do it yourself. It is hard to screw up and it builds confidence.

zeontestpilot > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
04/19/2016 at 08:58

Im also trying to weigh free time, and if it's higher than I'd like, it's fuel in convincing my wife to let me do it. It's important to weigh all options, :)

McMike > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 08:59

I thought for sure they were still putting drums on Grands Prix.

zeontestpilot > McMike
04/19/2016 at 09:08

Maybe the previous gen?

McMike > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 09:14

I was just assuming.

Urambo Tauro > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 09:19

The only concern I have about bleeding the system is rust.

There is a chance, especially here in Michigan, that the bleeders aren’t going to open. Worst-case scenario is that the bleeder screws break as you’re trying to unscrew them. The fluid won’t leak out; the car will remain driveable. You just won’t be able to bleed it.

But to pursue bleeding the system in the event of broken bleeders, the caliper/wheel cylinder is going to have to be removed. Once it’s off of the car, that’s when the car becomes non-roadworthy. Air will get into the system, and bleeding it out will become absolutely mandatory . You will either be extracting the rest of the old bleeder screw and putting a new one in, or replacing the whole caliper/wheel cylinder.

Or, the bleeders might just unscrew and everything will go smoothly. I’d squirt the bleeders with a little penetrating oil to increase your chances.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 09:25

Man I didn’t know the brakes hadn’t been bled in EVER when we did your brakes.

We can do that in the driveway. Real easy when you have a second person.

zeontestpilot > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner
04/19/2016 at 09:32

I guess I’ve had too many close encounters that it’s annoyed me enough to ask about it. I’ve been assuming it was normal all this time since this isn’t the only car that did this, :/.

And I just talked to my mom, the Corolla has never been done either. so I told them it needs to be done asap. I guess this is my car ‘green-ness’ is showing. *sigh*

I don’t suppose I can come over and you can help me out with it? I'm always nervous about doing something this important.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 09:38

Of course you can. I also wonder if we need to check the...other set of brakes. We just did the front ones right? Wouldn’t be bad to update the rear brakes/rotors if they are warn and start bleeding from back there.

Actually I was hoping some of your lawn mower experience could help me level the mower deck on my Craftsman rider mower. You ever level one out before? I know you have one similar to mine. Ever since I took the deck off last summer while doing suspension work mine hasn’t been cutting as nice (steering a heck of a lot better though!).

crowmolly > Ash78, voting early and often
04/19/2016 at 09:55

Same here. I’ve got a Motive and a MityVac and I prefer the Motive. More than $40 I think.

zeon, I think you can actually rent a MityVac from Autozone/Advance.

Ash78, voting early and often > crowmolly
04/19/2016 at 10:00

Yeah, it was $40 when I bought it around 2003. Inflation. The hose on mine managed to wet-rot from exposure to brake fluid (imagine that!) but it was an easy repair. And the only caveat I have is to keep the pressure reasonable. At 15psi, I managed to bust my master cylinder reservoir open — but it was 15-16 years old and getting pretty brittle. Also, VW plastics are crappy over time.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Meatcoma
04/19/2016 at 10:01

What shops do you know that only charge a $40-60/hour labor rate? Most places charge an hour, because they do a flush running 1-2 liters through the system to clear any old crap out. Plus the cost of fluid. So depending on the shop you’re probably looking at $100 to $150 for normal cars at normal shops (maybachs for instance are around 3.5 hours because they have 3 brake fluid reservoirs, 2 hydraulic units, and 6 calipers).

crowmolly > Ash78, voting early and often
04/19/2016 at 10:04

Ha! Mine too. I had to replace the hose.

I usually run mine at 10psi or so (I think) and just take my time with it.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 10:15

Having read your update, most manufacturers recommend replacing brake fluid every 2-3 years. Your fluid should be clear to golden in color. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, meaning it absorbs water, usually just condensation in the system. Water is not a hydraulic fluid and will boil under certain conditions inside of a brake system. Even a total of 2-3% moisture content in brake fluid can have adverse affects (there are testers for this, but I don’t think you need one).

It’s a good idea to flush at last 1 liter of new fluid through the system, don’t just do 3 pumps at each corner and call it good. 2 liters would be even better, especially since your fluid probably looks more like black tar than brake fluid.

brianbrannon > zeontestpilot
04/19/2016 at 11:14

Spongy brakes is caused by bad brake fluid or drum brakes that need adjustment or stuck caliper pins. However, it’s the tires that actually stop the car

Meatcoma > AMGtech - now with more recalls!
04/19/2016 at 11:44

I’ve taken cars to Midas and advanceauto and had them just bleed the brakes and it’s never cost me over $50. I don’t drive a maybach.

Obviously it depends on where you live as well, but here in the midwest I’m sure I could get it done for under $50.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Meatcoma
04/19/2016 at 19:47

That still seems crazy cheap to me, but I think places like Midas only charge .3-.4 hours. Which does two things: makes the cost super cheap and screws the tech. If it’s just bleeding it’s fine, but a flush should be an hour. Sorry, ranting, not trying to yell at you, chain shops like that publish their own times a lot which pay somewhere between 30-50% of factory warranty times which are already difficult to meet on a lot of cars. One thing to be aware of, bleeding is not the same as a flush (or fluid exchange).

Meatcoma > AMGtech - now with more recalls!
04/19/2016 at 19:59

If the brakes worked perfectly fine before he replaced the rotors/pads then all he really needs is a bleed job. If he changed the brakes/rotors because of the problem then it’s likely either a leak, booster or master in which case it’s going to cost him anyhow.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Meatcoma
04/19/2016 at 20:59

Flushing should be done every couple of years as a maintenance item since brake fluid doors go bad and absorbs moisture. Unless he opened the hydraulic system for pads and rotors he shouldn’t need a bleed. Just pushing caliper pistons in doesn’t introduce air unless there’s another problem. But really old fluid can definitely cause some problems.

Meatcoma > AMGtech - now with more recalls!
04/20/2016 at 08:18

we are both speculating =)